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tv   MSNBC Live With Kate Snow  MSNBC  October 27, 2015 12:00pm-2:01pm PDT

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ahead in a new national poll. any moment now, president obama will address an international gathering of police chiefs in his hometown of chicago where he's expected to launch a major new push for criminal justice reform. according to the white house, the president will call for reducing mandatory minimum sentences for non-violent drug offenders and new gun safety measures to keep officers safe, the speech amid a rare bipartisan consensus. the senate judiciary committee reduced mandatory minimum sentences, the measure the white house supports and comes against the backdrop of a historic uptick in violent crime. chicago, the setting for today's speech, has had more than 400 homicides in 2015. that's nearly as many as all of last year. last week, at this same convention, fbi director comey suggested police might be more hesitant to engage with violent
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criminals if they're always under a microscope. >> part of the explanation is a chill wind that's blown through law enforcement over the last year. and that wind is surely changing behavior. in today's youtube world, are officers reluctant to get out of the cars endo the work that controls violent crime? >> joining me now from chicago, nbc new's john yang. john, the white house pushed back on the comments of comey a bit. >> reporter: pushed back very hard, kate. they made it clear they don't agree with them. out here from white house, eric schultz told reporters that the available body of evidence does not support the notion that law enforcement officers around the country are shying away from doing their jobs. he said the emphasis are they wanted to put the emphasis on rebuilding trust between the police and the communities they serve. trust that they feel has been
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eroded by events in ferguson, missouri, and in baltimore with the freddie gray case. it's interesting, though, that on that topic, that view that fbi director james comey expressed before this group, is also shared by mayor rahm emanuel, mayor of chicago and president obama's first white house chief of staff. he's used the term that police have gone fetal after in the post-ferguson, post-baltimore world. he said that earlier this month in a way of perhaps trying to explain why september here in chicago was the deadliest month in the city in terms of homicides since 2002 with 60 homicides. kate? >> all right. john yang in chicago, we are waiting for the president and as soon as we see him, we'll bring it to you live when it happens. meantime, the other develops story out of south carolina. the startling crepe phone video of a high school classroom in columbia showing a school
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resource officer grabbing a female student, slamming her to the ground and dragging her along the floor. federal authorities have opened a civil rights investigation into the incident now and the fbi has been asked to investigate. the officer identified as deputy ben fields is put on administrative leave. we are expecting to hear from officials with the school district at 4:00 eastern time. that's about an hour from now. but just this past hour, the mayor of columbia, south carolina, spoke with my colleague thomas roberts. >> this type of activity ought not ever be seen in a school and never exercised by someone who's given the power to not only restrict someone's freedom of laws to save lives. i saw this last night and i was outraged. >> here's what the sheriff's office has had to say about the incident. >> the student was asked to leave the class several times by the instructor at the school. assistant principal was there, as well.
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and then the officer called on scene to actually have the student removed from that location. the student refused and the officer acted that you sooef seen on the videos. >> just this hour, the sheriff's department released a new statement saying the criminal investigation will be best served with the fbi as the lead agency. charles hadlock is in columbia, southbound senior citizen, now with the very latest for us. charles? >> reporter: hi, kate. school is about out here at spring valley high school in columbia, south carolina. about 24 hours after that video was released in a viral spread across the internet it shows the moments after the police officer arrived in the classroom, what we don't see is what happened in the minutes before he arrived. we're told that the student, female teenage student, was disruptive, using the cell phone. the teach asked her to hand it over. she refused. she refused to get up. she refused to leave. a school administrator even came
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into the classroom to try to get her out of the classroom. when that failed, that's when the resource officer, the officer that's assigned to the school came to the classroom, he verbally asked her to leave. he verbally told her that he would have to physically remove her if she did not cooperate and tilted the chair backwards. she fell to the floor. he drab grabbed her out of the chair and threw her to the front of the classroom and placed handcuffs on her. people are outraged at that saying that the girl was unarmed and not posing a threat to anyone. she was just being hard head i guess. not wanting to obey commands. it didn't deserve being kicked to the front of the classroom according to critics. the sheriff says that he is going to turn the case over to the fbi and the justice department to investigate fully. kate? >> all right. charles hadlock on the ground in south carolina, this incident of course sparked a national
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conversation about discipline in schools, about officers in schools, for more on what's happening around the country, i'm joined by judith brown deanis, co-director of the advancement project. nice to have you with us. thank you for being with us. >> thank you. >> this is such disrupting video for any parent you think about your own child in a classroom. we don't know what happens right before but it almost feels like it doesn't matter that that kind of violence just seems so unjustified from what we're looking at. >> that's right. this is outrageous. i'm the mother of a 13-year-old. can't imagine what i would do if that's my child. you know, we have a problem in this country. we have a policing problem. we have a discipline crisis. unfortunately, having police in our schools enforcing disciplinary matters has led to these kinds of problems. you know, the federal government put over $82 million into funding police in schools over just the past three years.
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and unfortunately, most police in schools are not trained to be in school hallways and in classrooms. which means that they're using the same failed tactics that we have seen on the streets and in communities of color and black communities are working in our schools. with our children, with black children, especially. and so this is a real problem and it's a crisis we have seen it, seen 5-year-olds arrested in schools. this was excessive use of force. this was a child who was sitting in a chair and, remember, this was a child who may have been insubordinate and it should not lead to excessive use of force. that police officer really should have been thinking about how to deescalate the situation, not how to man handle that child. >> how do we think about the balance here for america? there have, unfortunately, been so many shootings on the school
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propertying and that's where the officers have come from, right? people want security for their kids. >> right. >> when they're at school. >> right. and that's the difference. security versus enforcing discipline. officers should not be used as the disciplinary arm of our schools. that is the problem. they carry guns. they carry handcuffs. and so, it's one thing to secure the school and to make sure there is safety. this was an incident that didn't appear from the video from what we have seen to be an issue around safety. and so, what we have to do is -- i mean, police officers being outside of schools, et cetera, if that's what a community desires, so be it. but really, to be in the school deciding to man handle a young girl who was not listening to an instruction is way beyond the pale. >> judith, one of the things that strikes me, i don't know if it struck you, watching that video, you see other children in the -- other kids in the classroom and they're stiff and
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they're still and nobody seems to be yelling out or doing anything. how do you read that? >> right. that's because they're scared as hell. thinking about it, if you're sitting in a classroom and see this happening, i mean, think about part of the problem of police, right, is the relationships. broken relationships between communities and police. we see the same thing in schools. broken relationships between police and children. you know, there's a clash of cultures, schools are supposed to be places of learning. not places where children are criminalized. so having a police officer come in, he's going to enforce a code, a criminal code. he is not going to think about child development. most of them are not trained to do that. you know, it is important to also understand that most of the kids who are arrested in school are arrested for misdemeanors. many of them about disorderly conduct. for example, in florida, two thirds of the young people who are arrested in school are arrested for misdemeanors.
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so we're not talking about felonies. we are not talking about bringing guns to school and talking about stabbing someone or killing them. we're talking about childhood behaviors. we're talking about situations that could have been deescalated and handled in a very different we. >> hillary clinton tweeting about this incident. she wrote, there is no excuse for violence inside a school. the assault at spring valley high is unacceptable. schools should be safe places and seems to be saying a lot of same things that you're saying. i guess i wonder what the way forward is. what should happen? what should that teacher have done? again, we don't know exactly what happened before the camera started rolling. >> right. i mean, the teacher probably if the teacher cannot handle it, the teacher should call someone else but guess what, that should be a counselor, not a police officer. police officers come into n to do what police officers do which is to enforce the criminal code through their use of force whether that be lethal use of force or something less and so, you know, in our schools we need
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more counselors. we need to reinvest our money and make sure that we are reinvesting in our children, the safety. giving them the tools and giving the teachers tools to be able to handle these kinds of situations. >> judith, thanks so much for being with us. appreciate your insight. >> thank you. meantime, we are following the latest developments leading to tomorrow night's cnbc republican debate and ten candidates share the stage in boulder, colorado. today a new poll shows donald trump for the first time losing his national lead to ben carson. this after four polls showed carson topping trump in iowa, part of a surge that trump addressed on "morning joe." >> well, i don't get it. you know? to be honest with you. it's -- you know, you look at different things having to do with ben and there's a lot of contradiction and a lot of ques. ben carson is now doing well. and i think ben carson has a lot
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of problems with his record if you look at his record including going back in the past and the problems are going to start to come out. >> joining me now from the sight of tomorrow night's debate, moderator john harwood with us. nbc correspondent right next to him halle jackson. thank you for being with us, guys. john, i'll start with you since you're going to be there. when's the one issue you really want answered tomorrow night, john? >> i want to hear what people do to lift the incomes of average people that have been stuck in the country for 40 years, kate. you know, we've shown we know how to make an economy to make profits for corporations and shareholders and see the stock market go up but average people haven't been moving ahead. this is something that is a priority for democrats, for republicans and we have the chance to have these candidates lay out for us what they'll do about it. >> veering into personal attacks, if it gets messy, what
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is your strategy on that, john? do you jump in and try to take it back to policy or okay to let a little fireworks fly? >> you know, i think it's okay to let candidates mix it up. it's a mix of politics and policy. you alluded to the new poll showing ben carson moving ahead of donald trump. donald trump doesn't react well when he falls rehind. we saw that after the iowa poll came out over the weekend and he went after ben carson. i think there's going to be some electricity between the two guys at the center of the debate stage. >> halle, ben carson, we talked about the new polls, new national poll showing him pulling ahead of trump. today, the christian science monitor wrote it's carson's persona, not the policy views that dominates the impressions of the republican primary electorate. is that your impression? is it all about the persona? >> it is. at least in folks i've talked with, kate. it is not just what he says, it is how he says it that people seem to really like.
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you know, nbc news did a focus group in indiana where folks described carson as intelligent, wise, humble, a gentleman. they like that he's a doctor and i hear about people like his bedside manner. right? they like that he's an outsider and present the views and the outsider views in a calm way. particularly, when you contrast him with the person who's a main rival here, donald trump who's bombastic, loud, at a 10 all the time. carson is simply not cranking it up to that level, at least not right now. a you will though i agree, john. tomorrow night seeing the two guys mixing it up. my sense is more from trump than carson because i'm told from folks close to the campaign that carson simply doesn't have it, a desire to go on the attack. the ads he portrayed himself as an outsider about as negative as he's going to get. he's going after the establishment as a whole but not necessarily one particular candidate, at least at this moment in time. >> let's put it this way, kate. if he ramps it up, it will be
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the first time in our debate. >> that's right. and just quickly, jeb bush, john, what do you expect there? there's been so much talk about his campaign struggling, cutting back the staff. what does he need to do tomorrow night? >> well, first of all, i think he needs to reassure people for him that he's in this race to stay because there are a lot of people looking at the comments made over the weekend on the heels of those staff reductions saying the guy's got a foot out the door so that's one goal. the second goal is to re-establish himself as a strong central presence in this race. everyone thought when he raised all that money in the beginning he would be the dominant player. hasn't worked out that way. he has time. >> hold on a second to bring in k kasie hunt, as well. she has more to add. >> reporter: hey, kate. what john was just hitting on is absolutely right. i think that the stakes are extraordinary high for bush in this debate. there's a feeling especially
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among many of the donors and net houston with the bush family over the weekend that he really needs to take some steps to show that he can really get this moving, get it changing. especially with those comments that came out of south carolina where he essentially said, you know what? i have better things to do. if you aren't interested in a candidate like me. >> so sorry. i have to -- >> climbing a mountain. >> i'm so sorry. sorry to interrupt. president obama is about to speak. there he is in chicago addressing the police chiefs on how to fix america's justice system. let's listen in. >> chief barry, thank you for that introduction because it was brief which -- and that's what i like. that the point, one way or another people know who i am, and let me also thank our joutd standing mayor of the city of chicago rahm emanuel for hosting us.
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[ applause ] i know that thousands of you from federal, state, county, local and tribal agencies have been working hard to share strategies and solutions to better serve and protect all of us. and we are profoundly grateful for your work. i do hope that you have gotten a little time to enjoy my hometown, as well. because there's -- there is fun to be had here. so ma somebody clapped. now, even as we meet here today, though, another gathering of police is taking place in new york. randolph holder was born in guyana to a family of police officers. his dad was a police officer. his grandfather was a police officer. and after his family came to america, randolph followed in their footsteps and joined new
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york's finest. a week ago today as shots fired call came over the radio and as officer holder chased down a suspect, he was shot and killed in the line of duty. officer holder didn't run toward danger because he thought of himself as a hero. he ran toward danger because he was a cop. it was part of his job description, part of his calling. it's why so many of you wear the badge. every day, you risk your lives so that the rest of us don't have to. you serve and protect to provide the security so many americans
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take for granted. and by the way, your families serve alongside you. and as you serve, america places very high expectations on you. expectations that cops across america work every day to meet. so i want to start by saying on behalf of the american people, thank you. [ applause ] thank you. [ applause ] thank you. this country is safer because of your efforts. look at the statistics. over the last 20 years, police have helped cut the violent crime rate and the homicide rate
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in america by almost half. it's an astonishing statistic. today americans are nearly half as likely to be the victim of an aggravated assault and less than half as likely to be the victim of a robbery. and even lesser known are the countless acts of kindness and support, helpfulness that your officers perform in your respective communities each and every day. so i want to be as clear as i can be. i reject any narrative that seeks to divide police and communities that they serve. [ applause ] i reject a storyline that says
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when it comes to public safety there's a us and a them. a narrative that too often gets served up to us by news stations seeking ratings or seeking retweets or political candidates seeking some attention. i know that's shocking that political candidates do that. because your work and your service really has helped make america safer than it's been in decades. and that's something for which every american should be proud. now, that doesn't mean that things are perfect. it doesn't mean that we shouldn't have a serious and robust debate. over fairness in law enforcement. over our broader criminal justice system when it comes particularly to communities of color. i was just talking to chief barry before i came out and i
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know that there was an outstanding discussion with the naacp. i've talked to enough chiefs and beat cops around the country to know you care about these issues. you want to do the right thing. and i know there are a few people -- there are a ffew peop more invested in declining crime rates in minority communities that so often have been under policed. they want more police presence in many of these communities, not less. and that's why i'm confident that in this debate people of goodwill can and should find common ground. and many of you have shown that there are actions, specific actions we can take that will make a difference in moving us in that direction. now, first we do need to get
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some facts established. so far, the data shows that overall violent crime rates across the nation appear to be nearly as low as they were last year. and significantly lower than they were in previous decades. it is true that in some cities including here in my hometown of chicago gun violence and homicides have spiked and in some cases they have spiked significantly. but the fact is that so far at least across the nation the data shows that we are still enjoying historically low rates of violent crime.
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moreover, over the past few years, the number of police officers shot and killed in the line of duty has fallen to their lowest levels in decades. in fact, 2013 saw the fewest cops shot and killed in the line of duty since 1887. of course, each victim of crime is one too many. each fallen police officer is one too many. [ applause ] i've spoken to too many families of the fallen including right before i came out here to not fully appreciate the pain and the hardship, the fear that so many families go through because
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police officers are put themselves in the line of fire. moreover, because the spike in violent crime in a number of predominantly urban minority communities is real and deeply troubling, i want to make it very clear, this is not something that i just think of as being academic. i live on the south side of chicago so my house is pretty close to some places where shootings take place. because that's real, we have got to get on top of it before it becomes an accelerating trend and that's why i've asked my outstanding attorney general, loretta lynch, a former prosecutor, to work aggressively with law enforcement and leaders in these communities to find out
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why is this happening and target resources where they will have an impact. so for the remainder of the time that i'm in this office, and then as a private citizen, i will do everything that i can to encourage cooperation and work hard to make sure that the work that's being done by law enforcement is appreciated and suppo supported and that we maintain this incredible progress that we have made in terms of reducing crime. but in order for us to do that we do have to stick with the facts. what we can't do is cherry pick data or use feed political agendas. if we stick with the facts and we maintain effective coordination across federal, state and local agencies then we're going to continue the
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hard-fought progress that you and so many law enforcement officers have made over the past two decades that saves lives and keeps families intact. now, it's to maintain this progress that i've spent a lot of time this year with people of all backgrounds working to reform our criminal justice system, to think about how can we make it work better? i visited a prison in oklahoma. met with inmates and corrections officers. i just last week visited a community in west virginia and met with recovering substance abusers and those working on new solutions for treatment and rehabilitation. i've met with rank and file officers in the oval office. met with police chiefs in the white house. met with chiefs and rank and file officers in camden, new
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jersey. paid tribute to those who have fallen in the line of duty. and listened to families talk about what they're looking for in terms of support. and as i said in my state of the union address this year, i'm convinced that progress comes together when we work together. and we work together best when we're willing to understand one another. when instead of having debates over talk radio we stop and listen to each other so that we can empathize with the father that fears his son can't walk home without being mistaken for a criminal and when we sympathize with the wife who can't rest until her husband walks through the front door at the end of his shift. those of us in positions of power have an obligation to give you what you need to do your jobs even better and to
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facilitate the conversations and reforms required to move us all forward. so today -- [ applause ] so today, i'd like to focus on three things. obviously, i don't have time to touch on every aspect of these issues. i'm sure you have already heard a lot of speeches today and yesterday. but i want to focus on three things i think are really important. first, making sure you've got the resources you need to get the job done. [ applause ] second, criminal justice reforms that will make the system smarter and fairer. and third -- [ applause ] and third, reducing the risks
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your officers face in the field with common sense gun safety reforms. [ applause ] we need to start by supporting you. the men and women who walk that thin blue line. over the past 6 1/2 years, my administration has invested more than $2 billion to retain or hire 10,000 police officers. when state and city budgets paralyzed in the economic crisis, we stepped in to save the jobs of thousands of cops. right now, we are helping make sure departments throughout the country have the equipment they need like bullet-proof vests and training to use that equipment. we have opened up data so that police departments use new da to to spot patterns and stop crimes and setting aside radio spectrum
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for first responders so the police departments share a single network. [ applause ] we're creating a nationwide blue alert system and launching anti-ambush training programs to help keep officers safe. vice president joe biden has an expression to offer. he has an expression for everything. show me your budget and i'll tell you what you value. well, i tell you what. in my budget proposal i have asked congress to increase funding for the cops programming to hire more police officers, make sure you have the training and equipment you need. that's what i value. [ applause ] it's in my budget.
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and i'll be honest with you. in the past, some republicans in congress have tried to cut funding for the cops program to zero. and i have argued that's wrong. it won't make us safer. it's time more folks in washington started valuing our cops, not just giving lip service to it. now -- [ applause ] the good news is the cops program and other programs that your departments rely on to your jobs may get some relief from the harmful spending cuts that congress imposed a couple of years ago because last night democrats and republicans in congress came together around a long-term budget agreement. i'm pretty happy about that. because it reflects our values, growing the economy and the middle class by investing in the things like education and job training that are needed and it keeps us safe by investing in our national security, it's paid for responsibly in part with a measure to make sure hedge funds
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and private equity firms pay what they owe in taxes just like everybody else. it's the right thing to do. [ applause ] and it's an actual bipartisan compromise which hasn't been happening in washington lately. locks in two years of budget that is finally free us from the cycle of shutdown threats and last-minute patch work fixes and allows us to plan for the future and allow your departments to plan for the future. so that's good news for everybody. it's a step forward. and i hope both parties come together to pass this agreement without delay. they have a few days to do it. i hope congress gets right to work on spending bills to invest in america's priorities and that they don't get sidetracked by ideological provisions that have no place in america's budget process. now, i believe that valuing law enforcement starts with making sure that it provides you the resources you need. but i also think it means more
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than just funding our priorities. money helps. more police officers help. but we've got to do more. so the second thing i want to focus on is fundamentally reforming our criminal justice system to make it martyr, fairer and easier for your officers to do their job safely and effectively. now, this is not an easy conversation to have. first of all, we all care about keeping crime rates low and things have been working and so a lot of folks say, what's the problem? but for generations we have had african-american and latino communities who have pointed to racial disparities in the application of criminal justice from arrest rates to sentencing to incarceration rates and all too often those concerns no
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matter how well documented have been brushed aside and we haven't a situation of a big chunk of the population feels like maybe the system isn't working as well for them. at the same time, too often law enforcement gets skapgoated for the broader failures of our society and our criminal justice system. [ applause ] and i know you do your jobs with distinction no matter the challenges you face. that's part of wearing a badge. but we can't expect you to contain and control problems that the rest of us aren't willing to face or do anything about. problems ranging from sub standard education to a shortage of jobs and opportunity. an absence of drug treatment programs and laws that result in it being easier and too many neighborhoods for young person to purchase a gun than a book.
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so if we're serious about protecting our communities and supporting our police departments, then let's invest in more opportunity and let's try to stop more crime before it starts. let's go after the racial disparities at the root. one study found that every dollar we invest in pre-k and universal pre-k, early childhood education, we save at least twice that in reduced crime. getting a teenager a job for the summer may cost some money but it costs a fraction of what it costs to lock him up for 15 years. [ applause ] it's not enough to tell our young people that crime doesn't pay if they have no prospects at all.
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we've got to make sure they grow up knowing that hard work and responsibility pay off. and that they've got other paths available to them. for those who do break the law, we do have to take a hard look at whether in all circumstances punishment fits the crime. now i want to be clear about this. right now america is home to less than 5% of the world's population but about 25% of its prisoners. now, plenty of them belong there. i don't have sympathy for dangerous, violent offenders. i don't have sympathy for folks preying or children. i have two daughters. i care about making sure these streets are safe. [ applause ] so, so -- you know, this is not some bleeding heart attitude
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here. violence is real. and n this city and around the country. and i've seen firsthand the devastation the drug trade has wrought on entire communities and i don't think decriminalization is a panacea. you know, down in west virginia, you'd hear stories of families where these are good folks whose children were getting caught up in drugs and young people suddenly overdosing three, four times. getting caught up in the criminal justice system themselves because they were hooked. but it's also important for us to acknowledge that our prisons are crowded with not only hard core violent offenders but also non-violent offenders serving
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very long sentences for drug crimes at taxpayer expense and it's important to acknowledge that having millions of black and latino men in the criminal justice system without any ability for most of them to find a job after release and most of them will eventually be released, that's not a sustainable situation. it is possible for us to come up with strategies that effectively reduce the damage that the drug trade without relying solely on incarceration. and the reason i say that is because we have seen states and local police departments and law enforcement do it. states from texas to south carolina to california and connecticut have already reduced the prison populations over five years and seen their crime rates fall. so let's take some of the $80
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billion we spend each year to keep people locked up, not all of it, because like i said, some of those folks you want behind bars. but let's look at the system and see where areas where we can use some of that money to help law enforcement go after drug kingpins and violent gangs and terrorists. and if we can get some with a drug addiction or mental health issue into treatment, that may save us some money that allows us to put a murderer in the jail cell instead. when we do that, we're not just making it more likely that a nonvie lent offender can be reintegrated into society. we are making the entire community safer. if rehabilitation programs help a prisonerecome a skilled worker instead of a hardened criminal, you are less likely to have to arrest that person again and again and again. and, you know, i can't thank the chiefs enough here because a lot
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of you are out front on this issuend talked about it. i know because i've met with you on it. now, in a hopeful sign, good people in both political parties are actually ready to do something about this. just last week, the senate which basically gets very little done as you may have noticed, the senate voted to move forward on a bipartisan criminal justice reform bill. and that bill would cut back on mandatory minimuming for nonviolence drug 0 fenners, give inmates time off their sentences if they do programs that makes them less likely to recommit an offense and reinvest some savings in law enforcement so you have more resources you need and a similar bill in the house of representatives. so this is not something i goat say very often. i amy encouraged by what congress is doing.
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i hope they get a bill to my desk so that i can sign it and together we can work to keep reducing america's crime rate and its incarceration rate at the saime. [ applause ] now, even if we pass bipartisan reform we are still going to have communities that experience a disproportionate amount of crime. in every big city in america, and some small ones, folks know where the neighborhoods where crimes are taking place. disproportionately. and in some of those communities, we've still got work to do to restore trust between law enforcement and the citizens they protect and serve. this is also a hard conversation
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but i hope you don't mind i'm going to go ahead and have it. it's one of the benefits of not having to run for office again. i'm sure if you polled this room, people would have different takes on what happened in places like ferguson and new york. and let's face it. the media tends to focus on the sensational and the controversial and folks on both sides who say stuff that's not designed to bring people together but oftentimes makes a situation more polarized and as a society we tend to lurch from shock to complacency on these issues. and i'm suggesting we have to resist that impulse. with today's technology, if just
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one of your officers does something irresponsible, the whole world knows about it moments later. and countless incidents of effective police work rarely make it on the evening news. [ applause ] so, it's important for us not to just pounce and jump on anything that happens and immediately just draw conclusions. we've got to resist the false trap that says either there should be no accountability for police or that every police officer is suspect no matter what they do. neither of those things can be right. it's on all of us to let investigations uncover facts.
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to make sure that stories of misconduct aren't spread before we know the facts and that they're not the only story that is we share because as i said before every day your officers aren't just stopping crimes. they're responding to emergencies and protecting victims of domestic violence and volunteering to coach little league and refereeing pick-up games. those stories need to go viral, as well. but you know as well as i do that the tensions in some communities, the feeling that law enforcement isn't always applied fairly, those sentiments don't just come out of nowhere. i mean, there's a long history here in this country. it's not something that any individual person here is responsible for but we all have a responsibility to do something about it because it's part of
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our legacy. i was at an event last week with l.a.'s police chief, charlie beck. we were asked about this issue, of tensions and the feeling of minority communities that sometimes law enforcement isn't applied fairly. and i repeated what i have said before which is that there were times when i was younger and maybe even as i got a little older but before i had a motorcade where i got pulled over and i confessed. i told chief beck, most of the time i got a ticket, i deserved it. i knew why i was pulled over. but there were times where i didn't. and as a report that came out just this week reminded us, there are a lot of african-americans not just me who have that same kind of story
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of being pulled over or frisked or something and the data shows that this is not an aberration. it doesn't mean each case is a problem. it means that when you aggregate the cases and you look at it, you have to say there's some racial bias in the system. now, problems of racial justice or injustice have been running themes throughout this country's history in every institution. in every institution. and by the way, bias and stereotypes oftentimes go both ways. so eliminating bias is not something that falls on the police alone. the good news is our divides are not as deep as some would like to suggest.
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i will tell you. i don't know anybody in the minority community that does not want strong, effective law enforcement. i don't know anybody who doesn't want their kids to be safe when they're walking to school or playing in a playground. everybody should understand that police officers do a dangerous job. nobody wants to see police officers hurt. the question then is how do we bridge these issues? concern about fairness and a concern about effectiveness in making sure the police officers get the support they need. that's why i set up a task force on 21st century policing last year that came up with detailed recommendations, the departments and officers can implement to keep building trust. and i appreciate all of the members, the iacp who joined fellow officers and community activists and young people as part of that task force. i would urge all the chiefs here
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and all of you who are interested in this to look at the task force recommendations because it was interesting. you have people protesters at ferguson sitting with police officers and police chiefs an they came up with some shared recommendations. it talked about having open data and independent investigations to make sure the system was fair. it talked about helping law enforcement work with schools and butzs and youth groups so the kids that want to make a difference in the community say when i grow up i want to be a cop. right here in chicago mayor emanuel and the chicago pd spent the past few years working to work on this philosophy, putting more officers on bike and foot to talk to residents. earlier this year, i went to camden, new jersey, where they used to have complete mistrust between the department and local residents and where the crime
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rate was sky high. and they're now using community policing and data to drive down crime. they have a war room with cameras trained on hot spots around the city and they have got software that lets community residents direct those cameras on where drug dealers or gangs are congregating. the police chief trained the officers, from the first day, the officers dropped off in the neighborhoods serving and said you're spending all day here without a car. figure it out. which meant that if they even just want to go to the restroom, they have to get to know the local business and they started meeting parents and communities. and that way they were -- because they knew the communities they were serving, they were able to distinguish between the drug dealer and the
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good kid even if both of them were wearing a hoodie. the police even bought two ice cream trucks with drug forfeiture money and in the summer drove them into some neighborhoods where gangs had taken over and drug dealers were peddling on the streets and otherwise the street was empty. they drove those ice cream trucks planted them there and had police officers giving out free ice cream. and suddenly the community started coming out and the drug dealers started fading away. all of a sudden, the street corners where criminals were dealing drugs had police officers dishing out free chocolate chip. but in all of these efforts, the goal was to get the community involved before a crime takes place. to build trust before a crisis erupts. and officers then feel more
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welcome to their communities, citizens are more likely to cooperate with the police and makes us all safer. >> brian williams with you here in new york. before kate snow, we have been offering live coverage of the president's address. because of the subject matter today, and because of the conversation that's gone on in just the last two or three days. and keep in mind, as the president spoke, thousands of men and women across this country strapped on a gun, they're on their way to work for the 4:00 to 12:00 shift in one of the most dangerous and harrowing jobs in our country. and keep in mind, as well, most of them will retire at the end of their careers having never fired a gun. and yet, this job which seems to far from a presidential address in front of a group of police chiefs at their annual convention in chicago where the rubber meets the road is where the conversation so often has to
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begin. the president was just talking about a success story. we have covered the south of new york, across the river from philadelphia. in camden, new jersey. but he also just addressed ferguson. and that's why we want to go to nbc's ron allen. our friend ron was covering ferguson. long after many in the news media went home. we saw that explosion of violence and, ron, first of all, explain why ferguson has been in the news vis-a-vis the fbi director james comey. >> reporter: well, the ferguson affect is what it's called. the question is that the fbi director and others raised is whether it's had a chilling affect on law enforcement across the country, the threat of being videotaped and the threat of officers being seen doing bad things if you will has had a chilling effect on law enforcement. officer -- fbi director comey insists it has and gone to say
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it's caused an increase in crime around the country and the white house has pushed back at that saying that there really isn't a direct evidence of that. and that law enforcement officers are not out there shirking their responsibility. now, clearly, brian, this is a very tough issue for the president because beyond ferguson, his administration's been aggressive in initiating investigations of law enforcement agencies across the country, police departments, based on racial bias. findings, initiating pattern and practices investigations to determine if there's racial bias. they found that allegedly in ferguson. baltimore, new orleans and a number of other departments across the country. so clearly, this is an issue that the president's been focused on and it's been a tough issue for him vis-a-vis law enforcement and why i think he began the remarks accentuating the positive. praising, thanking law enforcement for the work they do and saying that overall violent
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crime is at historic lows in this country, law enforcement officers who as you point out strapping on the guns are doing heroic work. clearly, he faced criticism of law enforcement because some occasions, many occasions, perhaps say, he's been seen, the president that is, to side with the protest emergency rooms out in the streets or with the victims of crime and this, of course, goes back to the case of the harvard professor skip gates and trayvon martin and so many other cases and a delicate issue for the president and one he feels strongly about. you heard the personal references he made as a young man without a motorcade and stopped by the officers, often justified and sometimes not and a very sensitive issue for the president and one i think a legacy issue for him when the history is written about his presidency years from now. >> ron allen on the delicate and sensitive nature of the topic, the president took on today, in front of that audience specifically and kate snow speaking of the thousands of
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police officers about to depart on the afternoon and evening tour, to the president's other acknowledgment as a point before the chiefs, if one of them makes an error, given our an error, g kusht media environment, the entire world will see it on television hours later. >> and it's something very much in the news today. brian, as you know, we'll be coming back to that story in south carolina in just a moment. i do want to bring in a gentleman who's been patiently waiting with me here. former baltimore police officer for 33 years, neil franklin is with us. and neil, you're on this commission that the president has put together, law enforcement leaders to reduce crime and incarceration, about 130 members of law enforcement, you met with the president last week, prior to the speech we were just listening to. i just wonder how you take what he's laying out here. and what he's saying specificalspecific ally about policing, about racial bias and reduction of crime and some of the reforms he
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wants. >> at the brennan center here in new york put this group together, like charlie beck, garyy mccarthy in chicago, bratton from new york, and so we met with the president at the white house last thursday and much of what you're hearing him speak about today he talked about. it makes a lot of sense. we can't continue this path that we're at with mass incarceration. we have to turn a corner and we have to start bringing people home. he talked about recidivism, and the difficulty in policing. he talked about us versus them, cauldron mentality, and this group of 130 law enforcement leaders around the country agrees with him and what he's saying. now it's not going to be easy. as we start sending people home, dealing with recidivism, we have to have the things in place to wrap our arms around those folks, so services have to be in place. we have to dedicate the
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resources and the funding for that. but as he talks about changing some of these laws and crimes and looking at what really should be a crime, so we can focus more on violent crime, it's important, we need to do that. >> you're also executive director of law enforcement against prohibition, which is a group that believes you should decriminalize all drugs for adults, is what you believe. he said decriminalizing drugs is not a panacea, but thinks we can lessen sentence on some crimes. >> decriminalization and legalization, what we speak to is regulation and control. it's interesting, so he's at the international association of chiefs of police right now, giving this speech, and one of the founding members who used to be one of the early leaders of that organization is a guy by the name of ballmer from city police in the 1920s, and he predicted this very thing
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regarding drug trade and where it will lead regarding the violence, and that if we move in this direction of prohibition with drugs, it will lead to more crime, give more power and control to the organizations and we'll have more dangerous drugs available to our citizens, mainly our young people. i wish we could listen to our forefathers in policing what they predicted. >> as mentioned by my colleague ron allen at the white house, people have been talking about that comey said there was a ferguson effect. >> there was. we saw the same thing in baltimore. i was there during our riots this past spring. we experienced the same thing after the riots where the police backed off -- >> out of fear they would be recorded on a cell phone video. >> i think it's a feeling of lack of support and being embraced by the community. so part of this problem is, we have to take a really good look at what we're giving our police officers to do within our
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communities and that's the laws that we are requiring them to enforce. we did the thing earlier in springville high school where the officer came in to remove that young lady from the classroom. when i was in school, i never saw that. we have to really be cautious about what we're giving police to do. police should not be arresting 7-year-olds, we should not be putting them in handcuffs. all the social ills, that we don't want to deal with, we're giving to the police and our criminal justice problems and that's not the way to solve these problems. >> neill franklin, thanks so much for being with us. and as you mentioned, the situation in south carolina, we are following breaking news out of there, where we're expecting to hear from school officials, talking about that disturbing cell phone video, which, as we mentioned, shows a school safety officer grabbing a female student, slamming her to the floor. we're waiting for a press conference to begin there. you see the open microphone. while we wait, i want to bring
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in charles hadlock who is following the story, also ari melber. charles, let me start with you, what do we expect to happen here? we'll hear from school officials? >> reporter: that's correct. the school district here, columbia school district is expected to have a news conference beginning any moment now. and then at 5:00 eastern time, the sheriff is expected to have his own news conference. he had flown to chicago to listen to the president's speech, to that group in chicago, but he returned here to columbia to take care of this matter. he's placed the officer, ben fields, on administrative leave until this investigation is over. he's also asked the fbi and the justice department to look into exactly what happened at this school yesterday in that video that went viral almost immediately. kate? >> all right, charles, we're going to listen into the press conference beginning now from the school in columbia, south
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carolina. >> thumbs up if you can hear me good? thumbs up, thumbs up, thumbs up. i think i got everybody. okay. we're going to go ahead and get started. good afternoon, i'm libby roof, chief communications officer for richland school district 2. i want to thank each of you for coming today to help us share information in response to the incident that occurred at spring valley high school yesterday. we have four people who will speak today. they are our bar chairman, honorable james manning, our superintendent, dr. debby hamm, our chief, multi culture inclusion diversity officer, helen grant, and principal from spring valley high school jeff tim oni, you should all have their names in the news release that was given to you. following their statements and we'll let them give all their statements first and we will open it up for questions. we will have to cut off questions at 4:45. we have a regularly scheduled
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board meeting that we need to get to and need to be there on time. also as you know, the sheriff's department is having a news conference at 5:00 ppt want to give you ample time to get to that. first i'd like to introduce james manning, chairman of our richland board of trustees. >> thank you, libby. first off, i want to thank you all for being here on such short notice today and also like to introduce some very special guests that are with us. we're very fortunate to have some strong supporters at richland school district 2 and the work that we do here. first i'd like to introduce couple board members, chip jackson and amelia mackie. to my right, i would like to introduce the columbia urban league president j.t. mclaw horn, the columbia mayor, mayor steve benjamin, who is in the
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back of the room, and the reverend dr. chris levy johnson with our northeast richmond ministerial alliance, and we appreciate them being here with us today as we discuss this issue. oh, i'm sorry. i apologize, and the honorable miss susan bril here to my right. also, i'm sorry, one other guest. mr. john ewing with the richland county sheriff's department who is over our school resource officers. so i want to make a few comments and then i'm going to turn it over to the other podium speakers. this is a great school district and we have much to be proud of. i know this district well, not only through my service on the board, but also as the parent of a richland 2 student. yesterday's incident was an outrageous exception to the culture, conduct, and standards in which we so strongly believe
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in, in this district. there is absolutely no place in this district or any other district for that matter for what happened here yesterday. our tolerance for it is zero. i imagine that there are two questions that are upper most on everyone's mind. one, what were the circumstances surrounding the shocking video that we have all seen? and what is the school district going to do about it? in response to the first question, let me report that our school district has asked the south carolina law enforcement division, or sled, to conduct an independent investigation. that alert was delivered this morning. the sheriff's office has asked that the fbi and the u.s. attorney's office similarly investigate this matter. united states attorney bill nettles has been in touch with the district, and assured us that the federal authorities will work in concert with s.l.e.d. to investigate the
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incident which transpired yesterday and will coordinate their efforts. others here will address the second question further, but before i finish, i'd like to touch on three key points. one, we are going to evaluate, reinforce, and strengthen our training of our school district personnel with respect to when it's appropriate to involve school resource officers in our school situations. two, we will be working closely with the richland county sheriff's office on ways to strengthen the training on our resource officers. and our task force, lead by helen grant will be accelerating efforts to not only engage the community in a meaningful conversation, but also to find constructive ways to turn talk into action. the board and i have great confidence in the professionals running the school district. i repeat that what happened
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yesterday, what we all watched on that shamefully shocking video is reprehensible, unforgivable, and inconsistent with everything that this district stands for, what we work for, and what we aspire to be. we value our relationship with the richland county sheriff's department and the important role that our school resource officers have in our district. in our schools and our community. we will fully cooperate with the sheriff's department, with s.l.e.d. and with the fbi as they complete their independent investigations into this matter. we are doing everything in our power to take action to not only prevent such a heinous incident from recurring, but will make us a stronger school district doing an even better job for the children and families of this wonderful community. as we have stated previously, the safety and the dignity of our students is our highest priority. at this time, i would like to introduce our superintendent of
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richland 2 schools, dr. w. hamm. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> again, thank you all are being here, you'll have to forgive me, i have laryngitis, this is about as loudly as i can speak. i do want to say that officer -- [ inaudible ] -- has been one of the most upsetting incidents i've experienced. as chairman manning said, it was outrageous and unforgivable, and it does not represent who this district is. we do have separate protocols for disciplinary incidents and criminal behavior. school resource officers are typically involved in the latter. it is essential that our personnel clearly understand, not only the nature of the situation, but also the
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application of the proper protocol. clearly something did not go right in this classroom. working closely with the sheriff's department and independent, federal, and state investigating agencies, we are examining exactly what happened. one of the actions we will be taking is to strengthen our training efforts -- >> you've been listening to a press conference at the school district there in south carolina. this is the school that's gotten so much attention today. listening just now to, it's the audio of the press conference and just to explain, we're using technology that we call live view in this business, which runs on cell phone connections. so the reason you were hearing a lot of break-up there is because of bad cell phone connection. but basically that was a press conference from the richland 2 school district in columbia, south carolina. james manning, the school board chair saying our tolerance for what happened here is zero, and then you just heard debby hamm, the superintendent, saying it
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was outrageous and unforgivable. of course they're talking about the video that you see on the left side of your screen, involving an officer who was based at a school, removing a child from a classroom. i want to bring in joy reid, who is with me on set, and eugene o'donnell, former new york city police officer, professor of law, and msnbc national correspondent joy reid. joy, you've been watching this play out. you hear the school district saying, this is a complete mistake. they're not making any excuses for the behavior of this officer. >> and there are a couple of unusual things that have happened. the officer has been placed on unpaid leave, which local folk that i spoke with said it's unusual for the way that incidents involving police play out. normally it's paid. he's on unpaid leave. this officer has been involved in two prior incidents. one was a 2007 lawsuit in which a person filed a lawsuit
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claiming that the officer slammed him to the ground and kicked him, and that his wife who took pictures of the arrest, that the officer ordered her cell phone to be con fiskated by a second officer. they filed a case that involved unlawful use of force, and violation of their free speech rights for the confiscation of the cell phone. that was a lawsuit in which the jury found in favor of the officer. the same officer is one of ten defendants in a second case, which is scheduled to go to trial next year, in which a spring valley high school student alleges they were wrongfully expelled into 2003 in an incident involving the same officer. so this officer does have a bit of a history. >> and since you bring up the legal, i want to bring in ari melber, if he's still with us as well. ari, legally speaking, what can happen now to this officer, and does it matter the background that joy just mentioned, in terms of his previous encounters with the law? >> that background probably would not come up with a legal proceeding. what we have here, as you mentioned in your reporting,
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though, is really the opposite of a circling of the wagons. sometimes there's the criticism in allegations of police misconduct, there isn't a full investigation. here, clearly because of the national outrage and the viral video, we have something like the opposite of that effect. the fbi announcing it will investigate because the sheriff explicitly requested it and the press conference we were covering showing multiple school officers saying, this doesn't speak for us, this is in our school. why is that important? as we know, these are basically school resource officers, they are deployed within the school and part of the school. so it's by no means automatic even when conduct is questionable, that it would go down like this. legally, what you're going to have, though, is the officer is entitled to a full and fair process. there's an employment piece to that. and depending on what happens from the student here and their family, there could be a challenge made where you sue the officer directly. we don't have reports of that to date. that wouldn't happen this fast. but what's striking and what
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connects to the other big story we've been covering this afternoon is what the president was talking about before a whole auditorium full of officers, the idea that video and the viral spread of videos changes the nature of these investigations. that can be positive when it's a force for accountability. it can be negative, the president was saying, when it distorts people's views. this video, as you've been reporting and interviewing folks, has an almost widespread uniform national condemnation, there isn't really as we see it there up on the screen, there isn't really a valid use of force or proportional defense to that conduct, even if, kate, one could argue that earlier on, from what we don't see in the video, there may be other actions from that student. we don't have the whole story. but that kind of force technique, you see, flipping a student like that, when they're unarmed, generally legally unacceptable. >> and we should probably note that in the 2013 case, i believe the officer denies any
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wrong-doing in that previous case. but let me bring eugene in here too. just in terms of what is acceptable behavior by police officers who are assigned to schools, do we need in this country better guidelines for resource officers? >> unequivocally. this is on the school board, for them to point the finger downward, the police are overinserted, overused. i don't think these school resource officers, it's a good idea. they end up working for the school. they're supposed to be independent people who can say "no." they become like school employees trying to police the people inside the school. >> but so many of them were brought in because of fears about security, no? we've gone through a giant national conversation about how to keep our schools free of shooting incidents. >> we have american police chiefs just this week saying something good, which is, they have to start to learn to say to the public, there are things we can do, and things we shouldn't be doing. the police are overused.
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superintendent mccarthy is running this initiative. we need the police to be withdrawn in a lot of the situations. but anybody who's a police executive will tell you, this is a recipe for trouble. having police people there is a disciplinary matter being handled by law enforcement as a law enforcement issue, and this is not an isolated event. >> go ahead, ari. >> to jump in on that point, it's so important what he's saying there, because, look, there's what officers do, and then there's what we ask them to do. there's a national debate on facebook and moving through the media about what this officer did, whether people like what he did, that's an important conversation. but the larger conversation is what are officers being asked to do. the justice department found a 38% increase in these school resource officers. that is, in schools, sending these officers in there and the question is, is that the role of police? is that what we should be asking police to do? things that for decades in this
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country were disciplinary in the school, a suspension or expulsion being turned into a police matter and a criminal matter. there's the question of whether folks are getting that right, or whether we're over-criminalizing a response to something this for most of history was just, hey, kids will be kids, deal with it within the school and not everything goes to court. >> and just on that very point, i spoke earlier with senator marlon kimpson, who doesn't represent the district, but grew up in columbia, south carolina, and his first cousin graduated from spring vale. it used to be a white school, it's about 60/40 now. one of the contexts here, after columbi columbine, the federal government began issuing grants across the nation which resulted in something like 20,000 new hires of school resource officers and it was precisely in the context that you mentioned, kate, to keep schools safe from potential columbine-like incidents.
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these officers are deployed and it's all very different. in north charleston, south carolina, they're paid by the school board. in other counties, they're supp employed and paid by the sheriff's office. so you have different tracks in terms of who is giving the officers their guidance and training. and the training is very disparate. and one of the things that state senator kimpson made the point, they have legislation that he put through the south carolina legislature, to deal with the fact that you now have an increasing number of students, particularly students of color who are getting criminal records based on encounters with sro officers for what used to be, back in the days when he was going to high school, incidents that were strictly disciplinary. now the sros are being called in to deal with it. >> it's incumbent on police chiefs to say "no" to this. they have to tell people, this is not our role. and we should be uncomfortable
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with the blurring of the chain of command. the police are there in the school, they have to arrest school authorities. they can't be so cozy within the context of the school that they just have to please the principal and the teachers. it deprofessionalizes law enforcement. people don't become police officers to go after schoolchildren about disciplinary issues. >> just to clarify what happened here, this is a student, who according to the local reporting, was using a cell phone in class, was asked to not use the cell phone, then was asked to leave the class. initially an administrator was called in to deal with it. >> this is a school failure, a failure of the school. >> we could talk all day. thank you all for being with us. appreciate it. coming up, done deal. for the first time in five years, the white house and congress agree on a way to avoid the fiscal cliff, and it couldn't have come at a better time for paul ryan. plus, police in philadelphia
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re-open a sexual abuse claim against bill cosby and the issue of whether or not the comedian will face charges could come down to a political race. and the u.s. changing strategy against isis, the defense secretary today saying it could mean boots on the ground. we'll explain that just ahead. i am totally blind. and sometimes i struggle to sleep at night, and stay awake during the day. this is called non-24. learn more by calling 844-824-2424. or visit your24info.com.
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>> so after years of stop and go government funding, the white house and congressional leaders have reached a sweeping accord. last night they came to an agreement that would fund the government and stave off any debt ceiling fights for the remainder of the obama presidency. it tackles some of the most
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contentious issues facing congress ahead of paul ryan's nomination as house speaker tomorrow. but ryan is already calibrating his message to appeal to the more conservative wings of his party. >> i think this process stinks. under new management, we are not going to run the house this way. >> joining me now, nbc news capitol hill correspondent luke russert. what's the latest from there, we have a deal? >> well, we have a deal. it's progressing forward. it still has not gone to the rules committee to become totally formal, but it was submitted last night, kate. and we should say, this was john boehner's early christmas gift to paul ryan, because it gets rid of a lot of the burdens that would have dragged on him his first few weeks of the speakership. take a listen to what boehner had to say about it. >> i wanted to do my best to clean the barn. i didn't him to walk into a dirty barn full of you know what. >> only as john boehner could say it there, kate, a dirty barn. what does the deal do to
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alleviate the dirty barn? number one, it will extend the debt limit through march of 2017. a very big president to ryan. why? that could cause an economic catastrophe if the u.s. were to default on its debt. something the republicans hate, but don't have to worry about now. the government funded through 2017. exactly how you get there still has to be worked out in an omnibus spending bill, that will come up december 11th, but they're confident in that. you also have $80 billion in additional spending and some sequester relief, more money for defense, more money for domestic, a 2% cut to medicare and medicare doctors. that's how this is all being paid for. and you also prevent a cut in disability insurance and it also closes other loopholes to pay for it. so this has potential to be a very significant development, not only for congress, but for
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paul ryan personally. you alluded to that he was against this earlier. he's against the process because he's really trying to convey to the more conservative members that he will not negotiate deals like john boehner did this one, in a back room with just a few congressional leaders and that should help his speaker's vote on thursday. but it looks like all systems go by tomorrow afternoon, kate. >> and thursday is the day for paul ryan, not tomorrow, but -- wait. >> tomorrow is wednesday. tomorrow is the conference election where we'll be nominated by his party. >> thank you. >> and then thursday is when the vote happens on the speaker's floor. >> thank you. what day is it again? >> who knows? it's cable news, kate, one day, seven years. >> we'll miss john boehner and his press conferences too. thank you, luke. >> take care. all right, still ahead, new developments in the race for the white house on the eve of the next republican presidential debate, ben carson tops a new nationwide poll.
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major news today in the republican presidential race. a new poll showing ben carson now leading the republican field nationally. taking over the spot from donald trump. it's the first time that trump has not led the field since july. and it comes ahead of tomorrow night's big third republican debate airing on cnbc. joining me now from the debate site in boulder, colorado is john harwood with msnbc political correspondent kasie hunt. john, i'm going to start with you again, since you'll be in the hot seat, if you will, tomorrow night, leading the show. what do you expect out of tomorrow night? what kind of ground rules have you laid and what can we expect as viewers? >> well, we've done a ton of preparation, of course and it's still going on, trying to figure out the best questions to ask these candidates. but i'm expecting a lot of
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energy on that stage. it's a significant moment when donald trump is seeing the first national poll that shows him not in first place in quite a while. we've seen that he's very sensitive. he goes after other candidates. we saw today john kasich, the governor of ohio go very hard after both ben carson and donald trump, saying it's crazy the prescriptions that the two front-runners are offering. i think all of that, as well as the difficult straights that jeb bush finds himself in at the moment, argues for a lot of energy and a lot of people being very aggressive tomorrow night. >> kasie, it is a big day for carson. let me play a new television ad. i think this is his third ad now that he's got running. here's the new carson ad. >> i'm ben carson. i'm running for president, and i'm very much outside the box. there must be a in there somewhere. i'm ben carson and i approve this message. >> kasie, does that tell us that
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he's the man to beat tomorrow night? >> well, one thing about that ad, kate, that's interesting. is that obviously these outsider candidates are feeding off the anger in the electorate, but that's not an angry ad, so if that's something carson's campaign finds to be effective, that means he can capitalize on his outsider credentials without scaring people away. that's why you've seen him rise. he has a lot of support among white older women, evangelicals in iowa and they talk about his personal characteristics, much more soft-spoken than donald trump. i do think, though, john hit on at the end, a point about jeb bush, and i think it's important to underscore just how important this debate is for him. i think the expectations among his donors are extraordinarily high, and particularly with rubio closer to the center of the stage, we're going to see him much closer to that center than previously you'd had jeb bush on the other side of donald
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trump, and that's not going to be the case this time. so he really needs to step up into this moment or i think risk falling back even further than we've already seen him fall. >> some of the candidates have been talking about entitlements like medicare. ben carson has said almost that he wants to get rid of it and start over. do you expect that to come up tomorrow? i'm sure that's probably a line of questioning. >> no question about it, because you have this budget deal on capitol hill, which has some reductions to medicare, as well as the social security/disability program. that puts the entitlement issue on the table. so does the fact that donald trump has been making the case that he wants to protect social security and medicare. and ben carson wants to replace it with health savings accounts. that's a very charged subject in american politics. you can bet those two candidates will hit those issues, i think others will too.
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>> kasie, if you had to predict where we might hear the most intense discussion on economic policy tomorrow night? >> on economic policy, that's an interesting one. i actually will say it's a little bit out of the center of the stage. but chris christie tomorrow night is going to be standing in between rand paul and ted cruz. and for him, that's a little bit of a different scenario. previously he had been between people he had a little bit more in common with. rand paul and chris christie have really tangled in some of the previous debates and frankly, they have pretty different ideas about the economic policy that the country should be following. so i might keep an eye on that when we're not focused on the back and forth between trump and carson. >> a two-front war, kate. >> looking forward to tomorrow night. thank you both so much. john, as we mentioned, will be one of the moderators of tomorrow night's debate at 6:00 eastern on cnbc. so while the new poll we mentioned shows donald trump behind ben carson nationally, it isn't all lost for the
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billionaire businessman. steve kornacki has a closer look and new sound from the trail this afternoon on another candidate we should be watching. >> yes, something to look forward to tomorrow night. but as you say for donald trump, the headline today is not good for donald trump when it comes to the poll. for the first time, falling behind in a national poll, you see trump four points behind ben carson. but when you say not all is lost, that's because there are some asterisks that come with this news. it's this. this is the average of all of the national polls. every day it feels like we have a new one. today it's from cbs and "the new york times." but when you average them all together, donald trump continues to lead this race. still almost five points ahead of ben carson. the significance, today marks the 100th consecutive day that donald trump has led in the average of all polls. so there is a poll out today that puts carson ahead. we'll see if there are more that
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start to come out now that put him ahead, but for the time being, when you look at the bigger picture here of national polling, trump continues to lead. and again, it's been 100 days. keep that in mind, when he started to climb in the polls, a lot of people said it's a flash in the pan, it's herman cain in the last two weeks. hundred days, he's still leading. more fine print working to his favor. you ask people, how made up is your mind? how sure are you on who you'll vote for? 55% of donald trump supporters say, my mind's made up. that's it. now, asked the question of ben carson supporters, you get a very different answer. 80% of them say, i'm not sure i'm with this guy. i might still end up with another candidate. so what you see there is, there's a lot more potential with ben carson to fall from the lead, to fall from the top of this race than there is for donald trump. that 55% number we showed for trump explains a lot of the
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staying power. and as kate said just a minute ago, some news from the campaign trail that could have big implications for that debate tomorrow night. a name we did not mention at all, john kasich, the governor of ohio, who is trying to get some traction. he offered what may be a preview of his strategy tomorrow night going after all of the other candidates in a speech that's raising eyebws today. >> do you know how crazy this election is? [ laughter ] >> let me tell you something, i've about had it with these people. and let me tell you why. we got one candidate that says that we ought to abolish medicaid and medicare. have you ever heard any so crazy as that? we got one candidate that actually said that the reason why we signed an agreement with ford to bring jobs back from mexico is because he's been yelling for the last week? i'm fed up. i'm sick and tired of listening to this nonsense and i'm going
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to have to call it like it is. >> and kate, saying i'm going to have to call it like it is, is pretty much raising the car tomorrow night for that debate. john kasich is saying he's going to show up at the debate and he's going to go after the candidates specifically by name. >> remind me where he is in the polls, though. >> that's why he's doing that. it's now or never for john kasich. >> we'll be watching, steve, thanks so much. coming up, how the case against bill cosby could hinge on the outcome of a local election next week in pennsylvania. plus, china blasts the u.s. for sailing a warship through disputed waters in the south china sea. what message was washington trying to send there? those stories and much more coming up.
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constant's attorney confirmed to nbc news that her client did indeed meet with investigators from montgomery county, pennsylvania, suburban philadelphia, just two months ago. ten years ago, constant accused cosby of drugging and sexually assaulting her in his home in january of 2004, a civil case was settled in 2006. but in the time since then, as you know, more than 55 women have now made accusations against bill cosby, ranging from sexual assault to harassment to being drugged by the comedian. cosby's attorneys have denied any wrongdoing and repeatedly point out that cosby has never been charged with a crime. joining me now to help us understand what the new pennsylvania investigation means is msnbc chief legal correspondent ari melber back with us. so it's confusing. there's a lot going on here. but we're talking about pennsylvania, philadelphia suburb going back to this initial case that started ten years ago. >> that's right. the big headline here today confirmed by nbc news is that
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these prosecutors in this pennsylvania office are again interviewing people, that means they have at a minimum an open inquiry. it doesn't mean bill cosby will be charged or go to jail. but to that burning question people ask as they look out at the range of accusers, many of whom you recently interviewed and sat with, this is an open criminal inquiry now. >> which is different from civil cases that are moving forward separately. politics has gotten involved as well in this particular part of the country we're talking about, montgomery county, pennsylvania, right? outside of philadelphia. there happens to be a district attorney's race going on now for the job of d.a. can you give us what's going on and then i want to play a couple ads from that race. >> yeah, kate, it's fascinating here. no surprise that bill cosby is a household name, and we have a public dialogue that's gone from, i think it's fair to say, a resistance to accusations about him, to now a question of
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when will justice be done, and you have these duelling ads in this race. >> let's watch the ads. >> kevin steele, first assistant d.a. with a 98% conviction rate and tough sentences for sexual predators. or bruce castor, a former d.a. who refused to prosecute bill cosby. castor says we don't charge people for making a mistake or doing something foolish. >> by now, you've heard my opponent's ad say i did nothing to protect the victims of bill cosby. these women's i.d.s became available after i left office. but kevin steele could have done something, because he's still a prosecutor who chose to do nothing at all. >> the election is next week. we could end up with a brand new d.a. >> we want our prosecutors to follow the facts and nothing else. those ads are proof positive
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than there's something more than just the facts going on. you have two guys duelling over why didn't anyone ever prosecute bill cosby? and i have to say, as an attorney, as a journalist, it's disturbing to see any individual case held up against a prosecutor like that, because it does potentially provide the kind of pressure we don't want. now what happens out of this, i would argue from what we know in those ads, both these fellas want to find a way to prosecute cosby if possible. the question is, what's holding them back? when a case is this hold and there isn't physical evidence, you clear the very high bar for moving forward. >> and just to remind, the statute of limitations ends about january, is that right? >> yes. you raise that good point of what's the time limit here. it's running out of time on the underlying sexual assault allegations from 2004. i did have the opportunity to speak with mr. castor who was
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the earlier d.a. and is running again. he told me, even if we can't get cosby on the allegations regarding assault, maybe we could get him on perjury, because he may have disassembled somewhere along the line in the leaked deposition, he talks about getting quaaludes, something he had denied at other points. the bottom line is, you have prosecutors who are saying this may not be all for not, even if some of the underlying issues are too old, there may be now enough depositions and legal processes that there's a hook for mr. cosby. that said, again, nothing has ever reached the bar where he's been charged. >> ari melber, thanks so much. coming up, the pentagon unveils a ramped-up strategy to combat isis in iraq and syria, but does it amount to u.s. boots on the ground? here's a little healthy advice. eat well, live well, and take of what makes you, you. right down to your skin with aveeno®
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directly. whether by strikes from the air or direct action on the ground. >> for more, jim, when you hear him say supporting partners in opportunistic attacks, what does that mean? >> essentially that means that u.s. forces, not large numbers of u.s. forces, but perhaps special operations forces, conducting the kind of raids we saw in northern iraq more than a week ago, will face combat operations. what's interesting, is after secretary carter made that statement, somewhat surprising there, before the senate armed services committee, there was immediately some pushback from administration officials, suggesting that, no, no, we're not talking about combat. but as the day progressed, they finally came forward to say on the record that they're not talking, or have no intention of long-term combat. but nobody suggested that large numbers of u.s. forces were going to be embedded on the ground, stationed on the ground
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there in iraq. but nevertheless, we had that situation in northern iraq, which seems to be the model for what u.s. military and the administration is looking at. where dozens of special operations forces, along with kurdish fighters, went after isis fighters and, in fact, freed some 70 hostages from a prison there. unfortunately, one of those delta force commandos, master sergeant joshua wheeler was killed in that action. now, today, the white house official said that operation was not combat either. but up on capitol hill, secretary carter indicated something else entirely. >> do you consider what sergeant wheeler was doing a combat operation? >> he was killed in combat. that wasn't the intent
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obviously. he was accompanying those forces. >> so what you have here, i think, is the administration talking politically while the d.o.d., secretary carter, are just trying to be as up front and forward and factual about what is lying ahead for u.s. troops in iraq. >> jim, we all saw the video from over the weekend. we've been running it from the helmet cams of those forces that were involved in that operation. it sure looked intense and on the ground. what are they saying about other areas that they're focusing on? i know there was mention of raqqa and hamady. >> raqqa is the self-proclaimed capital in syria for isis and a prime target not only for u.s. air strikes, but anti-isis friendly syrian forces there in syria. and ramadi is the provincial capital of the sunni area of iraq, a see city for the sunnis. and there can be no success
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against isis unless the sunnis are on board. so apparently it appears that the u.s. will do anything now, including some american combat participation on the ground with iraqi forces to retrieve or drive those forces -- those isis forces that now hold that provincial capital of ramadi. >> all right, jim miklaszewski at the pentagon, thanks so much. turning now to wall street, it's a down day for u.s. markets. hampton? >> hello, kate, yeah, markets were ending lower today ahead of the after-hour earnings from apple. the dow sinking by 41 points. s&p off by 5, the nasdaq down by 4 points. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. phil! oh no... (under his breath) hey man! hey peter. (unenthusiastic) oh... ha ha ha! joanne? is that you? it's me... you don't look a day over 70. am i right?
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china is furious with the u.s. after a navy ship sailed through disputed waters in the south china sea today. the u.s. destroyer sailed within 12 nautical miles of artificial islands built by china. the move represents a direct challenge to beijing's territorial claims in the south china sea. the ship did not encounter any resistance, but it was trailed by chinese ships. a u.s. defense official said the mission was part of a global effort to keep international waters open for navigation. let me bring in gordon chong now, author of "the coming collapse of china." good to have you with us. what's the significance of this, the u.s. going very close to those artificial islands on purpose to make a point? >> yeah, the point is that we are going to defend the global
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comments, not just for ourselves, but for every sea-faring nation. and if the u.s. has had any consistent foreign policy over the course of two centuries, it's been defending freedom of navigation. the chinese are trying to close off the south china sea, we're not going to let them do that. >> china says the actions of the u.s. warship have threatened chin's sovereignty, and security interests, jeopardizes the safety of personnel and facilities on the reef and damaged personal peace and stability. for those of us who don't know, these islands are man-made and they have some defense installations on them, correct? >> these mostly are submerged features, which means in the natural state, they were not visible at high tide. what china has done, built them above the sea level and has put at least two air strips that are really long enough for long-range fighters. they're probably building a third air strip and this is what has concerned countries in the region, because there are competing territorial claims to
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these features as well. >> concerning japan as well, right? >> in the east china sea, there's a dispute between china and japan. also china has declared an air defense identification zone over the east china sea and that includes the songe airspace of japan and it's also made the south koreans pretty upset. >> is this a major issue in terms of u.s.-china relations? >> this is an issue where there can't be any compromise on the part of the u.s. and china said it will not compromise either. this could divide washington and beijing. beijing because of internal problems is raising the flag of nationalism even higher, that means that chinese leaders have painted themselves into a very tight corner. >> going to be interesting to watch how it plays out. gordon chang, thanks so much for being with us. that does it for this hour. i'm kate snow. we're awaiting a press conference with the sheriff in south carolina, richland county
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sheriff and we'll bring that to you just as soon as that begins. but for now, i'm kate snow, "mtp daily" starts right now. in it's tuesday, jeb bush isn't the only republican showing frustration in the field. john kasich just lashed out, calling the competition crazy and saying he's about had it with these people. this is "mtp daily" and it starts right now. ♪ ♪ >> good evening from washington. we'll go right to south carolina, richland county sheriff's office is holding a presser right now on that disturbing video from a school that you've been watching all day. columbia high school. let's dip in where we saw a police officer caught on camera, slamming a female student to the ground and

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